Recent Kimkins Chatter

This was a post that came up as “RE:Nice Try” in KK Chatter (meaning the thread had been deleted, but people we replying to it while it was being deleted, that the new posts lived on. I didn’t see the deleted portion. It is an example of the devolution of the site and the overzealousness of some of the new Admins. I have changed names and IDs, and I hope I didn;t miss any. What was left of this thread spanned 4 pages before being locked. Since it may be deleted, I am recording it here for my banned friends, so they may gather some insight.

Member1:
Who deleted your journal???
You are not saying someone on the staff here are you?

Member2:
Only admins can delete posts. We can just edit them.

Member1:
Well I look like a total knob….
There was a message above mine where someone had said their journal had been deleted and the were upset. They were saying the information was still there???
So I was trying to figure out what they meant.
This is looking very odd now.
Can someone answer why a member’s personal journal would be deleted?
I find that very shocking and am hesitate to believe it could so would someone explain, please?

AdminSL:
There was a Tos violation involved.

Member1:
Admin-
Please expand on what TOS was violated?
Was the member notified by email or PM that they were violating a portion of the TOS
prior to their personal journal being deleted?
In my opinion the deleting of someone’s personal journal may be subject to scutiny. Particularly if they were not contacted and told that it would be deleted if they did not alter it to fit the current TOS. Without that communication the action may be construed as having other motives and I would hope other members will be given some form of notification.
Thank you

AdminSL:
The journal in question, various posts made across the boards, and that individual’s signature were being utilized to bring in/ link to the negativity elsewhere. They knew full well what they were doing and why things had to be removed….as was seen in their boasts elsewhere. The policy regarding such behavior has been made pretty clear, both by Kimmer, and the requests of the members here wanting to be able to focus on their weight loss without the interuption of those who participate only to cause problems or report to other sites.

Member3:
I vote for “some form of notification”. . . does voting count?
Admin sent her away and burned. oops. deleted her personal book/journal?
It was her PERSONAL journal, why not give her the option of copying it before it’s deleted. . . that sounds offensive to me and I thought being offensive was a violation of the TOS?
I’m not trying to be annoying with this post because I know being annoying is a violation of the TOS now, but I think the TOS, especially in that paragraph, is pretty subjective. . . .why not just give a list about what can and can not be discussed here and on other boards, where members can and can not go on the internet, etc. It would make things a whole heck of a lot easier. Thanks!

Member1:
Thank you for responding.
SL or other Admin-
It appears that the member was banned due to a TOS violation and this infraction was providing links to an outside internet source. Is that a correct interpretation of the banned member’s purported violation?
Let’s assume that their actions were a violation of the TOS then why was the member’s journal deleted before the member was banned?
The order of events does not compute. The journal was deleted and then the member was banned. These events occured in this sequence based on the fact that the member was posting about how their personal journal was deleted and now as you have indicated they have been subsequently banned.
If the banning occurred first they would not have been posting about the deleted personal journal. The post that discussed her deleted journal, that some may have viewed as negative, was posted after the journal deletion.
Thus it appears that a true TOS violation may not have occurred until after the deletion of the member’s journal.
As you stated the banned member must have been aware of the links on their signature prior to their last post. However the link does not stream in information.
Thus in order for other members to view what is being termed as negative the viewing member, themselves, would have to utilize the link.
The TOS does not state that a members may not potentially harass, annoy, badger, bully or act in an offensive manner to other members or administration.
It states only when those actions occur may a violator have their accounts canceled and no refund given.
The potential that something may occur is not equivalent to them actually occurring.
The reason for deleting the journal before the valid TOS violation has not been made apparent.
It is worth mentioning that during this time of controversy surrounding Kimkins some may view these actions as suspicious.
I would hope that other members whose actions are construed as a form of TOS infraction are given notification before deletion of their personal journals.
Thank you

AdminSL:
Perhaps a way to think of it would be something like this….
Lets say you are at a restaraunt….that you are there to relax, eat, enjoy time with your friends……but at the table next to you, someone is standing on the table top shouting at the top of their lungs that the food there sucks, that you should go to this and that place instead—that they intend to “save” you. Would you think that the establishment should allow that person to continue when they obviously are not there to partake and contribute, and are interfering and interupting the enjoyment of others? Would you not be bothered by the shouting going on next to you?
Many people do not want to see those kind of posts, and want to focus on the positive and their own personal progress. Those who create those kind of situations/posts know full well what they are doing and that it is against the TOS/ policy…and that it will be deleted…..just like it would be expected for someone causing a negative disturbance to be escorted out of a restaurant.
Please do not over-think the situation and twist it into something more complicated then it needs to be—the sequence of events has no special bearing–it just means that someone chose to take down the negative material first, then procede to other measures, and in that small gap of time, the individual made a post to try to make things look bad—that was their intent, and thus why it was placed on a board not even in-line with the topic nature/journals. The simple matter of it, was that it was a case of someone trying to cause problems through various means, and that no other explanation should be required….there is no reason to allow people to have free reign to disrupt and upset others in that manner.

Member4:
I’m new to posting here so forgive me for not being fully aware of how this all works but shouldn’t there be a clear cut, concise list of things that are not allowed to be posted? I mean, wasn’t this forum created to discuss things that are more on the controversial side? isn’t this the place where we’re supposed to be able to discuss the “brouhaha”?
I do not understand why there is no warning given for a TOS violation. Why is that? Isn’t that how it works in other forums on other sites? That’s my experience, what I have seen happen elsewhere. This is a paid site. Everyone here has paid some amount or another to be a member. Shouldn’t steps be taken to ensure that we’re given the benefit of the doubt, warned so we’re aware, and given a second chance to prove what our true colors may be before we’re banned from this place?
Why weren’t the signature links in question just removed from the posts and a warning given? Isn’t it possible to do that?
Aren’t those kinds of links allowed in this forum? I read some of the poster in questions posts and never once saw any screaming on a table top. I saw links. That’s it. Links. That denotes choice. I had a choice if I wanted to click on them or not, as did anyone else that read her. How is that a violation?
So,I find myself here, posting this with fear. Honestly, I’m not thrilled with the idea that the simple act of just speaking my mind, writing this post, may result in my loss of rights here at kimkins since I’m not sure who will find it offensive or attempt to save the masses from my point of view.
In addition, I have some serious questions I want to ask and haven’t because I fear that I will be banned, wiped out from the memory banks here because they may shine a not so lovely shaded light (in someone’s opinion) on the plan. But they are things happening to me and I have concerns and I would like to see if anyone else is experiencing them and what they may have done to correct them. I’ve also discovered, through my own experience and research, some things that I feel could be helpful to others but the reason for them is because of things happening to me on this plan. Am I posting about them? No. Why is that? Because I fear losing my right to be a part of this site because of the good possibility that they’ll be misconstrued as anti-kimkins. In the end, what kind of membership is that? Where is the support in that? Don’t I have the right to ask my questions, state my fears, share information?
I have paid to be a part of this site, like anyone else, and In my opinion it’s not right that I have sat here and read posts that still remain up from UNBANNED posters, who haven’t lost their journals, who still continue a prolific presence on this site after cursing, belittling other posters, calling them names, and/or attacking other posters. How is this NOT a violation of TOS? I find those posts extremely offensive, and I have read others offended by them, too, yet no one seems too worried about that. No one seems to be enforcing TOS with these posters. Those posters remain and the posts remain, occasionally with a small hand slap by an admin (many times there isn’t even that in place). That says to me that it’s more than TOS that’s to blame here.
So, please, some one fill me in on which perception of the TOS I fall under.
I’m serious here. I’m literally afraid to speak my mind. I’m a 48 year old woman and I’m sitting here, fretting over clicking the little, orange “submit” button. IMO, that screams of something being very, very wrong. Will I be banned for this? I guess I’m about to find out, but really … shouldn’t I know for sure if I’m committing an offense instead of having to hit “submit” to find out?

Member5:
It is not unusual for message boards to disallow links to other sites or to ban members without warning. In this case the person was posting on other websites their intent to disrupt this one. I believe the action taken, in whatever sequence, was appropriate. If you read the “other” websites, you would know that the other banning’s were for the same reason. No site owner wants people intentionally posting negative comments to drive other members away.

AdminSL:
Something more I will explain here. The reason I chose to leave this thread up and going, and reply to people who were nervous that maybe we are just randomly deleting journals…is because that is not what we are doing. In this case, there were very specific reasons to why that call was made. What many of you apparently did not see was that individual running through all the boards, making post after post that was direct problem causing. Following that, they went to another site where they were congratulated by many for their actions, and bragging and admitance to what they did…. and why…. was presented.
There is a very distinct difference between discussing the ‘bruhaha” and coming here specifically to create it, like we are some form of amusement. The chatter box here was created so that people would have a place to vent and discuss the issues…..but not to be used to harass people with links and materials to try to “turn them”. Because these incidents of people coming to this site with no other intention then to create problems was getting prolific, Kimmer made the decree that it would no-longer be tolerated or played with. If people do not want to follow this plan or participate, then they can go elsewhere and not harass those that choose to stay. All of those links, all of that negative information and discussions are easy enough to find if a person wants to, but there is no reason to make hundreds, if not thousands, of people here on the boards who want to be left alone to have to constantly see those kind of distractions and negativity that in no way contributes to the communities or weight loss.
I am sorry that you feel afraid to speak your mind, but this is still a place for people where they can come and talk about their lives, struggles and all that. The very reason that we try to weed out the negativity IS to keep this a safe environment….a place where people can come and focus on the positive, make friends, and make strides forward, without worrying that they are going to ecounter harassment and childish pranks. Those people also have been disragarding the privacy that should be upheld on a private board like this, and freely copy and post the words of others on other sites like a form of entertainment. That is wrong. This is another large reason why that kind of behavior is no-longer tolerated, and thus the reason why sometimes actions have to be taken in the best interest of the greater community here.
Please know, that before all of this recent commotion, even having to delete a post was very rare, and usually only due to accidental multiple posts or something. For any other questionable ” regular” situations…say, use of strong language….people will of course be notified or requested to change something before any kind of action would be taken. That was the whole intent in leaving this thread up—- was to let you all know that things are not randomly being done, that we want nothing more then for this to remain a safe and positive place that people can come to.

Member4:
I appreciate you answering. Thank you. Unfortunately, after reading that I now I have new concerns.
Just to be clear, are you saying that members here can be banned for what they post on other websites? Do I now have to be cautious of any possible contribution I make in the way of my own opinion, thoughts, concerns, or questions posted outside the walls of kimkins? How are people aware of what anyone here is doing outside of this site?
Can someone please give a clear account of what all of this includes? What if I have requested help on another site in hopes of finding solutions to some of the things I’m experiencing since starting kimkins? Is that against the rules? (What if someone here doesn’t think something I post somewhere else is acceptable to them? Do I have any recourse? Will I be told what I have supposedly done wrong and given a chance not to repeat the offense or will I just lose my access to this site?)
I want to know what topics are off limits. I want a clear, precise guideline. I want to know if I can come here, in the place I have paid to be a part of, where it’s stated that the support is the best feature, and ask questions that may not be viewed as positive.
I have not posted much. I have been here to read posts almost every day, and usually several times a day. I was content with that. It was interesting , inspiring, and informative. Now I find myself in a position where I need more than that. I have gone to other websites seeking answers to what I’m experiencing because I don’t feel safe to ask here.
Now I have to be concerned about what I do outside of this site? I don’t understand that. How can kimkins justify policing my internet activity AND then deciding if I need to be punished for it? again, I hover over the submit button, wondering. how much does that stink?

Member6:
I really think that it has to be taken on a case by case basis. There are people (for whatever reason) coming to this site to cause trouble. I, too, have read at different sites that people are doing this. I’ve seen it myself. To say that it is distracting to the other members here who have paid to be here and work on their weight loss is an understatement. The internet is a big place, but it isn’t that big. If a person is bragging about coming here (or to any site, really) with the express purpose of disrupting it then I really don’t see any problem with that person being banned. Honestly…this just makes sense.
This is all so absurd. This is a diet…or…WOE if you prefer. The whole point of this site is to help people lose weight and keep it off. We aren’t here to fight world hunger, end human trafficking, eradicate poverty, or find the cure for the common cold. We are here because we are lucky enough to have lives where instead of worrying about where our next meal is coming from, we are worrying about how to get RID of the meals that have come before.
This is JUST a diet site. There are a zillion (conservative estimate) of them out there. Some free…some costing money.
As far as having to be concerned about what you post elsewhere – I think that if you don’t post that you are here with the express purpose of “converting the savages” then you will be ok!

Member5:
I think AdminSL explained it very well. Alot of us on this board are members of other boards including those that contain anti-kimkins threads. Some may post, some may just lurk, but it becomes clear to everyone who is posting only to cause disruption on this board. Submit your post, it’s all good.

Member6: mcle
Ok so I only skimmed over most of what was said in this post but I think the banned subject was links to blogs against kimkins by former admin-right.
Gotta tell ya I used the links and read most of the blogs and instead of turning me against Kimkins and reinforced my ideas about why kimkins is successful because once again all the negative stuff was about people taking things to the extreeme or problems with business matters or Kimmers personal life. None of these ideas effect my WOE and the healthy aspects of it. WHen I read there is a lot of controversy, not knowing makes me doubt things more than reading and judging for myself.
Once agian I didnt read all of the info in this post but even I know you are not allowed to provide links to other sites
Ok I”m done
Happy low carbing

AdminSL:
No, this was not about a former admin.

Member4:
Thank You,
I want to ask you …. when you mention getting rid of the negativity on the site why haven’t the negative posts towards other posters been deleted? I see cursing, name calling, accusations, etc in posts that remain up. I see no banning or deleting where those posts are concerned. What I’m seeing happening, IMO, is that it’s the posts that question things about kimmer or kimkins that appear to be considered the problem here.
My concern here is with the unbalanced use of TOS.
I mean, why is it that it appears the plan and the creator of the plan are protected but not every poster here? This truly concerns me.
I have had my fear of asking my questions for a while now but what truly had me feeling the most insecure was witnessing another member here be nicely asked to stop cursing in her posts and then cursed at again in the original posters reply. It received a hand slap, IMO. In another post I witnessed name calling. Several other members came to the defense of the person who was slighted but not one administrator did that I witnessed. These are just a couple of examples.
How is that balanced? How is it justified? How is it right?
Honestly, from what I have read on this site, it’s appearing more and more that if the nastiness is in support of kimkins / kimmer, it’s allowable, no matter who it’s being said to, who it is said by, or who it hurts. Every one of us here have paid for the privilege of being here and so we should all be equally protected and held accountable to the same standards. That’s just a given, if you ask me. Unfortunately, it’s not how it seems to be working. Not from what I’ve been witnessing. To be honest, it’s been a major red flag for me. It’s what has caused me so much concern and kept me from posting.
Please explain to me how am I to feel safe and confident in voicing concerns I have and ask questions I have when I’m not sure what administration or poster may decide I’m making trouble? How am I to post even this post and feel comfortable/ confident that it will not result in speculation, banning, or retribution of some other sort?

Member6:
Honestly…if you AREN’T in support of this WOE…then this isn’t the place for you to be…there are so many other options for diets.
As for not feeling “safe” about posting a question…I think you should just go ahead and do it!! If you do it in a pleasant and respectful way, I think it is unlikely that you will get “flamed” which…last time I checked wasn’t actually fatal anyways.

AdminSL:
Where exactly are you seeing people insulting one another and the like? Most people who participate on these forums are polite, respectful adults, and situations like that are rare. There was a recent small incident of swearing, but that was addressed, thus cannot be claimed to have been neglected. I read and particpate on these boards closely, and I am sorry, just do not understand what you are referring to—no one else either is claiming or complaining of such things/behavior…because it just is not typical of this board, save for those recently coming in for that distinct purpose.
As for continuing to say over and over that you feel you cannot say or challenge anything without having action taken against you, you obviously have been speaking quite frankly and are still here. I do feel you are taking things to an extreme a bit oddly though, and are not paying attention to the explanations already provided, and the comments made by others.

AdminTT:
I know everyone is confused right now. There is no website message boards I know of who will allow it’s members to trash its own site. None. LCF won’t let you either. I know you all feel your journals are private but they are very much public for all to see. And people do read them, posts are lifted and can be used against us. Links to sites that trash us are not a good idea either. I hope you can all understand that.
I am truely sorry to learn anyone’s journal was deleted but if you use a journal to trash Kimkins, the founder or staff or for that matter a fellow member this may continue. Just be nice and you have nothing to worry about.
We are all here for the purpose of weight loss. And we want to see it is done safely. All of this negetive stuff does take time out from admins when people need help. We can’t be everywhere all the time. So please, if YOU see a board post that needs our attention, please tell us. We are here to help–not hurt.

AdminSL:
Something more I thought I should add after some very nice, and thoughtful Pms I have received….is this.
By all means feel free to participate on other message boards, websites, communities…there is no reason at all to not be able to do so. I myself am involved on many—spanning different kinds of subject matters. The problem is only with a small group of people bouncing site to site, publically gloating and bragging about activities being done specifically to cause harm and distruption on this site and for the members here. I imagine you can understand why we would want to discourage that. Like AdminTT said, as long as you are being nice, you have nothing to worry about.
You can even/ still link to things in your posts, signatures….just we are frowning at links directing to the negativity for the obvious purpose of stirring the pot so to speak. A couple people falsely stated that links are no longer allowed. If you have a blog, read an interesting article, want to show off a picture album of your pets…knock yourself out.

Member1:
Am I the only one here who still questions Why the journal was deleted first?
Remember what is being labeled as the offending post (where the member stated their journal was deleted) came after the deletion.
Am I the only one who finds that deleting journals is more of an offense to a members rights than having a link in a signature line Remember, if I had not been replying to the banned members post we would NOT have been aware of the deleted journals nor even the possibility that this is allowed.
Am I the only one here who feels a link to previous members blogs telling their stories…is just that a LINK? No other member has to utilize that Link unless they WANT the information.
Am I the only one questioning whether the member’s rights prior to the banning were violated?
I am aware of my consumer rights, however whether they are being upheld is my concern.
Am I the only one that views loose interpretation of the TOS and deletion of journal as wrong?
I fully understand the current TOS, but two wrongs don’t make a right.
Am I the only one?

Member7: (This sounds like kimmer in impersonation mode to me, but what do I know? -theTRUTH)
actually my vote would be yes you are the only one.
excuse me if you are offended by that remark, but here are a few questions
What did I pay $60 to join Kimkins for?
It certainly wasn’t to read a diatribe about the TOS.
Are you the only one that joined Kimkins to talk about the TOS so frequently?
Most likely because the heart and soul of the forum is for support of the plan and of the members who are losing weight with it.
Are you protecting my choice to be here?
No, and frankly you are annoying me with your continued less than necesary confrontation about the TOS or why a journal of someone who was obviously here for ulterior motives was deleted.
so all that being said, Since you have lost a total of 100lbs, in Kimkins and outside of Kimkins;
how bout a few of your best weightloss support tips instead?

Member1:
(Quoting Member7)

actually my vote would be yes you are the only one

Thank you for you vote and weighing in on my concerns.

excuse me if you are offended by that remark

Do I find offense with your opinions No because that would be giving them more value than they deserve.
but here are a few questions
Most of your questions appear to be rhetorical however I did respond since you wanted them discussed.
Below are my answers to the questions you posed and response to your comments

What did I pay $60 to join Kimkins for? It certainly wasn’t to read a diatribe about the TOS.

My posts pertaining to the TOS are not a rant, nor are they an attack on anyone, thus not a diatribe. The only diatribe I have viewed in this thread is yours. In that they are an attempt to make this personal instead of discussing the facts. You are mocking in your tone and also sardonic in how you phrased your post similar to mine. It is surprising how a person will attempt to make things a personal issue when they are attempting to not discuss the obvious. So a diatribe….I would like to say “pot meet kettle”
Your question on why did you join Kimkins appears to be rhetorical, but if you are truly asking me…then I would have to answer that you need to reflect on that yourself.

Are you the only one that joined Kimkins to talk about the TOS so frequently?

That is not why I joined Kimkins and I don’t feel that is all I have done as a member here on this board. I joined Kimkins just like most of the members here to loose weight and become healthy- not to discuss the violation of the TOS or consumer rights. However, when they occur I do expect to be able to question why.
I simply responded to a post in a thread. The original post by another member was deleted as referenced in this discussion. I did not start the thread nor was I the one who first brought up the term TOS. I simply responded to the reasoning behind the banning of the member.
Now if the question could be interpreted as whether I am the only member who feels that the TOS should be discussed in this thread. I would answer no due to the other responses.

Are you protecting my choice to be here?
No, and frankly you are annoying me with your continued less than necessary confrontation about the TOS or why a journal of someone who was obviously here for ulterior motives was deleted.

If by protecting my right to be here and protecting my right to discuss when that has been infringed I protect your choice then so be it…So -Yes. I may not agree with your vote or opinion, however I will support your right to be able to voice them.
You have described my post as confrontation and annoying.
I suspect my posts here on this thread have been far less confrontation than your input to this thread thus far. If my direct questions had been answered in full earlier in the thread I would have not responded with more than a thank you.
As far as the banned member having an ulterior motives how can you even state why another member was here. Especially if you do not even know which member was banned. The fact of the matter is you do not know what they could have been contributing to this board and now we will never be given the chance.

Since you have lost a total of 100lbs, in Kimkins and outside of Kimkins;
how bout a few of your best weightloss support tips instead?

Since you noticed my weight loss ticker than why did you question why I was here? Clearly from your observations you know my reason for being here at Kimkins was not only to discuss the TOS.
If you find this topic annoying then you don’t have to participate. But that was a big topic in this thread so it has been discussed many times, because that’s what threads tend to do…stay on topic.
Therefore if you want to get diet tips then I suggest you should post that question in a thread under the correct forum topic- NOT in the kimkins chatter.
Who knows maybe I will respond in that discussion as well.

AdminSL:
Please refrain from insulting or taking this against other members, there is no need for that.

Member8:
(Member1) – you are not the only one!!!! If Member7 is gettting annoyed by you, then maybe she should say out of this thread…I don’t get why she would read it if it annoys her?
I got my journal scrubbed just for putting Jimmy’s new forum link up. It has helped me tremendously..I stay away from the crap over there, but have finally broken a two month stall with some advice from over there. I didn’t say anything mean about anyone here or did I say anything mean over there. I am really upset.
Oh, and I didn’t get any warning either. So, I don’t know why they did it.

Member1:
The answers in my post were responded to directly because they were asked directly . The comments were directed at me personally so I responded in like.
When I was questioned for my reasoning of even being here or when comments where made to the effect that my post was a’diatribe’or when I was told I was annoying and being confrontation that was when the thread was made insulting and personal.
It is duly noted that responding in a similar manner is viewed under different guidelines.
Thank you

AdminSL:
Member8, please do not make it seem/sound like your journal was deleted, it is up and running…..I think we have detailed why objectional/negative links are being discouraged, and it sounds like someone simply removed one such from your journal.
Everyone, please play nice.

Member8:
Whoa! I did not say “deleted”..I said “scrubbed”. I did not put anything objectionable in it. I was away for a few weeks and so I came back and put..”Hey everyone we are hanging out and Jimmy’s new forum.” And then I put the address. I have been hanging out in the Atkins part getting advice on fat. I did not put anything against anything here. And it was helpful to me and I wanted others to know.
I am playing nice. I just wanted Member1 to not feel like she was alone. Pam does not have to be in this thread. Those are all facts.
My concern is not about being “flamed.” My concern is about being banned.

Member4:
I agree with you that most are polite and respectful. Still, some are not and it seems as if the use of banning, deleting, and the like are not equally applied to all members.
I’m aware of several people that have been banned from this site and for many, IMO, it wasn’t justified.
You say I’m speaking frankly about a concern I have about TOS and the practices of it here. To be honest .. for me, I haven’t been “frank.” I’m being cautious.
I’m a bit offended that you accuse me of not paying attention to the explanations provided and that I’m taking this to the extreme in some odd way. I’m attempting to find out just what the boundaries are concerning posting in a way that will ensure I do not lose my paid membership to this site. In light of the many who have been banned, do you honestly find that an odd question?

AdminSL:
I am going to lock this thread…because I feel everything was already explained regarding the deleting of the negative material and why, along with what constitutes ” bad behavior”…..and right now the conversation is no-longer appearing to move forward or be benifiting in anyway….the same couple of people keep seeming to want to take things in circles and not regard the information/ honest explanations that have been provided.
As for the JM link…he is involved in the anti-kk situation, thus why someone most likely decided to make that judgement.